Is Your Airplane Susceptible To Mis Fu eling? A Simple Test For Fuel Contamination.

[Helix]

For more hints on Precise Flying and Safety...Click Here
A simple test of AVGAS for Jet Fuel Contamination
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII(resume)


Fueling Safety

Certain piston aircraft are particularly susceptible to mis-fueling
incidents and you should be especially vigilant if you are flying one of
these birds.

Among them are the TURBO charged versions of many airplanes. In the desire
to be the hottest thing going, manufacturers often labeled their aircraft
"TURBO" or some such designation. And inadequately trained linemen thinking
that these were kerosene burning jet airplanes of some sort often put JET
FUEL where AVGAS should have gone.

This created a lethal comgination for many unsuspecting pilots. The plane
would start and apparently run ok, even enough for takeoff, but would start
having engine detonation problems about the time the point of no return was
reached on takeoff, causing a engine failure shortly after takeoff at low
altitude, resulting in a fatal crash."

This scenario has been repeated many times, usually with some pilot and
passengers getting killed.

Aero Commander aircraft seem to be particularly susceptible to this sort of
mis-fueling, as do Piper Turbo Arrow aircraft and other airplanes with TURBO
painted on them


IF You Suspect Fuel Contamination
Do NOT FLY!!!
Check it out first.

A simple way to test for jet fuel contamination of AVGAS is to take a fuel
sample, put a drop of fuel on a piece of white paper.

If there is a 5% or more concentration of jet fuel in the avgas, it will
leave a visible oily residue, turning the paper translucent. If it is avgas
only, the avgas will evaporate cleanly and leave no trace.
(I developed this test and gave it to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation. It was
later validated by NASA. You can get a copy of the report from AOPA ASF,
Frederick Airport, Frederick, MD)

Another way to avoid fueling accidents is to
BE PRESENT EVERY SINGLE TIME WHEN YOUR PLANE IS RE-FUELED.
NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THIS PROCEEDING.

Always VISUALLY Check the fuel truck to be sure you are getting the
appropriate fuel Yourself. LOOK AT THE FUEL TRUCK.

Always VISUALLY CHECK THE FUEL LEVEL YOURSELF AFTER FUELING.
(lOOK INSIDE THE TANK)

ALWAYS put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Check that it is secure so it
won't come loose in flight.

NEVER RELY ON A LINEMAN FOR THESE PARTICULAR INSPECTIONS.

The Most Common Cause of Inflight Engine Failure
Running out of fuel is the most common cause of in flight engine failure.
If you follow the safety procedures above, you can go a long way to
preventing an engine failure.


EVERY Flight

(1) Watch the re-fueling. BE PRESENT while this is going on.
(2) Visually make sure they are puttinG the right sort of fuel in the
aircraft. (the truck is marked AVGAS or JET FUEL.... Look at it
(3) Look in the tank after the fueling and KNOW what the fuel level is.
(4) ALWAYS Put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Make sure it is aligned
properly and closes properly.
If it comes loose your fuel will siphon out without your being aware of what
is happening.
(5) Keep a LARGE RESERVE of fuel. The lower your experience level the more
important this is.
It gives you the luxury of time to sort out a problem if you are lost,
dis-oriented, or otherwise have a time consuming problem in flight. If you
are low on fuel, your anxiety level will increase exponentially, making it
difficult to think under stress and increase your chance of an accident.

After my first experience long ago in nearly running out of gas, I have made
it a practice, to KEEP ONE FULL TANK in reserve. I use a little bit of it in
flight to confirm it is not contaminated and I when I am sure it is ok, I
use it for the next takeoff and keep the other tank full for the next leg.
This way, I minimize further the chance of getting caught by surprise,
either on takeoff or landing, with contaminated fuel.

Losing an engine on takeoff, at night, or on landing is VERY DISCONCERTING.

Today's navigation equipment makes it possible to navigate more precisely.
However this stuff can and does fail. If you are low on fuel when it happens
(the usual situation), then your chance for running out of gas goes way up.

This is even more true at night, in haze, or limited visibility conditions


***@ferrypilot.cjb.net
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII (resume)
888-595-9131
http://IFRGROUNDSCHOOL.cjb.net
http://10day.cjb.net
http://go.to/hints
http://ferrypilot.cjb.net

[Vigo]

I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a pilot
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

Post by Helix
For more hints on Precise Flying and Safety...Click Here
A simple test of AVGAS for Jet Fuel Contamination
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII(resume)
Fueling Safety
Certain piston aircraft are particularly susceptible to mis-fueling
incidents and you should be especially vigilant if you are flying one of
these birds.
Among them are the TURBO charged versions of many airplanes. In the desire
to be the hottest thing going, manufacturers often labeled their aircraft
"TURBO" or some such designation. And inadequately trained linemen thinking
that these were kerosene burning jet airplanes of some sort often put JET
FUEL where AVGAS should have gone.
This created a lethal comgination for many unsuspecting pilots. The plane
would start and apparently run ok, even enough for takeoff, but would start
having engine detonation problems about the time the point of no return was
reached on takeoff, causing a engine failure shortly after takeoff at low
altitude, resulting in a fatal crash."
This scenario has been repeated many times, usually with some pilot and
passengers getting killed.
Aero Commander aircraft seem to be particularly susceptible to this sort of
mis-fueling, as do Piper Turbo Arrow aircraft and other airplanes with TURBO
painted on them
IF You Suspect Fuel Contamination
Do NOT FLY!!!
Check it out first.
A simple way to test for jet fuel contamination of AVGAS is to take a fuel
sample, put a drop of fuel on a piece of white paper.
If there is a 5% or more concentration of jet fuel in the avgas, it will
leave a visible oily residue, turning the paper translucent. If it is avgas
only, the avgas will evaporate cleanly and leave no trace.
(I developed this test and gave it to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation. It was
later validated by NASA. You can get a copy of the report from AOPA ASF,
Frederick Airport, Frederick, MD)
Another way to avoid fueling accidents is to
BE PRESENT EVERY SINGLE TIME WHEN YOUR PLANE IS RE-FUELED.
NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THIS PROCEEDING.
Always VISUALLY Check the fuel truck to be sure you are getting the
appropriate fuel Yourself. LOOK AT THE FUEL TRUCK.
Always VISUALLY CHECK THE FUEL LEVEL YOURSELF AFTER FUELING.
(lOOK INSIDE THE TANK)
ALWAYS put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Check that it is secure so it
won't come loose in flight.
NEVER RELY ON A LINEMAN FOR THESE PARTICULAR INSPECTIONS.
The Most Common Cause of Inflight Engine Failure
Running out of fuel is the most common cause of in flight engine failure.
If you follow the safety procedures above, you can go a long way to
preventing an engine failure.
EVERY Flight
(1) Watch the re-fueling. BE PRESENT while this is going on.
(2) Visually make sure they are puttinG the right sort of fuel in the
aircraft. (the truck is marked AVGAS or JET FUEL.... Look at it
(3) Look in the tank after the fueling and KNOW what the fuel level is.
(4) ALWAYS Put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Make sure it is aligned
properly and closes properly.
If it comes loose your fuel will siphon out without your being aware of what
is happening.
(5) Keep a LARGE RESERVE of fuel. The lower your experience level the more
important this is.
It gives you the luxury of time to sort out a problem if you are lost,
dis-oriented, or otherwise have a time consuming problem in flight. If you
are low on fuel, your anxiety level will increase exponentially, making it
difficult to think under stress and increase your chance of an accident.
After my first experience long ago in nearly running out of gas, I have made
it a practice, to KEEP ONE FULL TANK in reserve. I use a little bit of it in
flight to confirm it is not contaminated and I when I am sure it is ok, I
use it for the next takeoff and keep the other tank full for the next leg.
This way, I minimize further the chance of getting caught by surprise,
either on takeoff or landing, with contaminated fuel.
Losing an engine on takeoff, at night, or on landing is VERY

DISCONCERTING.

Post by Helix
Today's navigation equipment makes it possible to navigate more precisely.
However this stuff can and does fail. If you are low on fuel when it happens
(the usual situation), then your chance for running out of gas goes way up.
This is even more true at night, in haze, or limited visibility conditions
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII (resume)
888-595-9131
http://IFRGROUNDSCHOOL.cjb.net
http://10day.cjb.net
http://go.to/hints
http://ferrypilot.cjb.net

[Bob Martin]

Post by Vigo
I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a pilot
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

It would have to be a really big bind... the engine would run but
probably be irrepairably damaged afterwards (or at least require a
very extensive and expensive overhaul).

Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin; I've heard the turbines on M-1 tanks can
take diesel or jet or standard gasoline. But they're usually designed
for a certain kind of fuel, and if you use something else it can
either destroy the combustion chambers or otherwise ruin the engine.

[Dylan Smith]

Post by Bob Martin
Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin;

Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

[Vigo]

in fact I have a kerosene heater in my ice fishing shack that I burn Jet-A
in. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to just fill a jerry can at the airport
then to buy a jug at wal-mart.

Post by Dylan Smith

Post by Bob Martin
Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin;

Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Bob Martin]

Post by Dylan Smith

Post by Bob Martin
Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin;

Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

I stand corrected... wonder how that semantic difference crept in?

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by Dylan Smith

Post by Bob Martin
Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin;

Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

In the U.S., paraffin is what candles are made out of, and kerosene is
the oil that is used for diesel fuel, home heating oil, jet fuel, etc.
....

ker·o·sene also ker·o·sine
n.

A thin oil distilled from petroleum or shale oil, used as a fuel for
heating and cooking, in lamps, and as a denaturant for alcohol. Also
called coal oil, lamp oil.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kerosene
....

par·af·fin
n.

1. A waxy white or colorless solid hydrocarbon mixture used to make
candles, wax paper, lubricants, and sealing materials. Also called
paraffin wax.
2. Chemistry. A member of the alkane series.
3. Chiefly British. Kerosene.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
.....

paraffin

\Par"af*fin\, Paraffine \Par"af*fine\, n. [F. paraffine, fr. L. parum
too little + affinis akin. So named in allusion to its chemical
inactivity.] (Chem.) A white waxy substance, resembling spermaceti,
tasteless and odorless, and obtained from coal tar, wood tar, petroleum,
etc., by distillation. It is used as an illuminant and lubricant. It is
very inert, not being acted upon by most of the strong chemical
reagents. It was formerly regarded as a definite compound, but is now
known to be a complex mixture of several higher hydrocarbons of the
methane or marsh-gas series; hence, by extension, any substance, whether
solid, liquid, or gaseous, of the same chemical series; thus coal gas
and kerosene consist largely of paraffins.

Note: In the present chemical usage this word is spelt paraffin, but in
commerce it is commonly spelt paraffine.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
Inc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paraffin

[Peter Duniho]

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?

Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the French word
for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".

Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were disagreeing was from
the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking world?

Pete

[Rich Ahrens]

Post by Peter Duniho

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?
Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the French word
for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".
Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were disagreeing was from
the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking world?

You're forgetting that Scott believes everything on Usenet should be
posted from a U.S. perspective. See, for example, his rants about an
April Fools Day joke posted on 4/1 in the poster's timezone, but before
the date rolled over in the U.S.

[Dylan Smith]

Post by Peter Duniho

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?
Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the French word
for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".
Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were disagreeing was from
the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking world?

Actually, there's quite a difference. Saying "The original jets ran on
paraffin" implies that they don't run on it any more. Pointing out that
paraffin is indeed kerosene shows that the same fuel is being used. This
is the point I was making. (Kerosene is often used to mean Jet-A in
Britain, and quite a few people don't realise that it's actually an
alias for paraffin. I was merely trying to broaden the pool of
knowledge. Sorry if it offended you.)

[AbsolutelyCertain]

Post by Scott M. Kozel
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

But Scott, the Brits don't speak the English Language .... do they?

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by Peter Duniho

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?
Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the French word
for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".
Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were disagreeing was from
the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking world?

I figured that he was from the "UK neighborhood", and I just wanted to
clearly define the two words to those on both sides of the audience,
since very few people in the U.S. would understand the concept that
"jets run on paraffin", since they would think of the white solid waxy
substance that candles are made out of.

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by Rich Ahrens

Post by Peter Duniho

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the same stuff.
Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word for what
Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?
Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the French word
for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".
Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were disagreeing was from
the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking world?

You're forgetting that Scott believes everything on Usenet should be
posted from a U.S. perspective.

I had already privately predicted that there would be a 'drivel'
response from Rich Ahrens. I have already clearly posted that I was
posting on behalf of both the U.S. and the U.K., and anyone who would
benefit from a clear definition of the two terms.

[Peter Duniho]

[...] I have already clearly posted that I was
posting on behalf of both the U.S. and the U.K., and anyone who would
benefit from a clear definition of the two terms.

Which is why your post read as a correction to Dylan's, rather than a "by
the way, the reverse is ALSO true".

Yeah, right.

If that was your intent, you need to work on your delivery.

Also, your news reader is screwing up the message references. Your replies
to previous posts keep coming up in threaded views as replies to different
posts than what you actually replied to.

Pete

[Rich Ahrens]

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Rich Ahrens

Post by Peter Duniho

Post by Scott M. Kozel

Post by Dylan Smith
Kerosene is the American word for paraffin - they are the
same stuff. Jets still run on it.

Actually the reverse is true - 'paraffin' is the British word
for what Americans call 'kerosene'.

Huh? What's the difference?
Seems to me you're arguing something like whether "moi" is the
French word for "me" or "me" is the English word for "moi".
Or did you not notice that the person to whom you were
disagreeing was from the UK neighborhood of the English-speaking
world?

You're forgetting that Scott believes everything on Usenet should
be posted from a U.S. perspective.

I had already privately predicted that there would be a 'drivel'
response from Rich Ahrens.

Yes, I did respond to your drivel, Scott. Are you making predictions to
your dust bunnies now? Are they suitably impressed?

Post by Scott M. Kozel
I have already clearly posted that I was posting on behalf of both
the U.S. and the U.K., and anyone who would benefit from a clear
definition of the two terms.

Oh, I'm sure both nations are deeply, deeply grateful to you for
speaking on their behalf. Which doesn't erase the fact that you
attempted a moronic correction of the previous poster above.

[Seth Dillon]

Most military turbine engines found in helos have an adjustment on the fuel
control to compensate for the different specific gravity of differing fuel
types, Diesel, Jp4, etc. I believe the M1 is also this way. As far as
using gasoline, especially avgas, is concerned this is a different matter.
The engine will probably run....but not well, or for very long. The
combustion chambers and the turbine blades and vanes will lead up
dramatically in a short period of time.
-Seth

Post by Bob Martin

Post by Vigo
I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a pilot
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

It would have to be a really big bind... the engine would run but
probably be irrepairably damaged afterwards (or at least require a
very extensive and expensive overhaul).
Turbine engines will run on almost anything flammable--the first
British jet ran on paraffin; I've heard the turbines on M-1 tanks can
take diesel or jet or standard gasoline. But they're usually designed
for a certain kind of fuel, and if you use something else it can
either destroy the combustion chambers or otherwise ruin the engine.

[Bob Moore]

As far as using gasoline, especially avgas, is concerned this is
a different matter. The engine will probably run....but not well,
or for very long. The combustion chambers and the turbine blades
and vanes will lead up dramatically in a short period of time.

As I posted earlier, the Westinghouse J-34-WE-36 jet engines
installed on the Lockheed P-2V Neptune were operated exclusively
on 115/145 AVGAS. I flew them for three years and never had
a problem. Always obtained 100% RPM for takeoff.
Tell us your "real world" experience with operating jet engines
on AVGAS, generalities just don't work.

Bob Moore
Patrol Squadron 21 1959-1962

[Helix]

You can burn AVGAS in a JET ENGINE for a limited
number of hours without hurting it. If you go over the allotted number of
hours you have to take it apart.

That number, for a King Air 200 is 100 hours.

If you try to burn JET FUEL in a PISTON ENGINE
DETONATION will destroy it in short order. Usually
it will last long enough to get about 50 feet and across the
fence.

Post by Vigo
I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a pilot
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

Post by Helix
For more hints on Precise Flying and Safety...Click Here
A simple test of AVGAS for Jet Fuel Contamination
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII(resume)
Fueling Safety
Certain piston aircraft are particularly susceptible to mis-fueling
incidents and you should be especially vigilant if you are flying one of
these birds.
Among them are the TURBO charged versions of many airplanes. In the desire
to be the hottest thing going, manufacturers often labeled their aircraft
"TURBO" or some such designation. And inadequately trained linemen

thinking

Post by Helix
that these were kerosene burning jet airplanes of some sort often put JET
FUEL where AVGAS should have gone.
This created a lethal comgination for many unsuspecting pilots. The plane
would start and apparently run ok, even enough for takeoff, but would

start

Post by Helix
having engine detonation problems about the time the point of no return

was

Post by Helix
reached on takeoff, causing a engine failure shortly after takeoff at low
altitude, resulting in a fatal crash."
This scenario has been repeated many times, usually with some pilot and
passengers getting killed.
Aero Commander aircraft seem to be particularly susceptible to this sort

of

Post by Helix
mis-fueling, as do Piper Turbo Arrow aircraft and other airplanes with

TURBO

Post by Helix
painted on them
IF You Suspect Fuel Contamination
Do NOT FLY!!!
Check it out first.
A simple way to test for jet fuel contamination of AVGAS is to take a fuel
sample, put a drop of fuel on a piece of white paper.
If there is a 5% or more concentration of jet fuel in the avgas, it will
leave a visible oily residue, turning the paper translucent. If it is

avgas

Post by Helix
only, the avgas will evaporate cleanly and leave no trace.
(I developed this test and gave it to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation. It

was

Post by Helix
later validated by NASA. You can get a copy of the report from AOPA ASF,
Frederick Airport, Frederick, MD)
Another way to avoid fueling accidents is to
BE PRESENT EVERY SINGLE TIME WHEN YOUR PLANE IS RE-FUELED.
NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THIS PROCEEDING.
Always VISUALLY Check the fuel truck to be sure you are getting the
appropriate fuel Yourself. LOOK AT THE FUEL TRUCK.
Always VISUALLY CHECK THE FUEL LEVEL YOURSELF AFTER FUELING.
(lOOK INSIDE THE TANK)
ALWAYS put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Check that it is secure so it
won't come loose in flight.
NEVER RELY ON A LINEMAN FOR THESE PARTICULAR INSPECTIONS.
The Most Common Cause of Inflight Engine Failure
Running out of fuel is the most common cause of in flight engine failure.
If you follow the safety procedures above, you can go a long way to
preventing an engine failure.
EVERY Flight
(1) Watch the re-fueling. BE PRESENT while this is going on.
(2) Visually make sure they are puttinG the right sort of fuel in the
aircraft. (the truck is marked AVGAS or JET FUEL.... Look at it
(3) Look in the tank after the fueling and KNOW what the fuel level is.
(4) ALWAYS Put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Make sure it is aligned
properly and closes properly.
If it comes loose your fuel will siphon out without your being aware of

what

Post by Helix
is happening.
(5) Keep a LARGE RESERVE of fuel. The lower your experience level the more
important this is.
It gives you the luxury of time to sort out a problem if you are lost,
dis-oriented, or otherwise have a time consuming problem in flight. If you
are low on fuel, your anxiety level will increase exponentially, making it
difficult to think under stress and increase your chance of an accident.
After my first experience long ago in nearly running out of gas, I have

made

Post by Helix
it a practice, to KEEP ONE FULL TANK in reserve. I use a little bit of

it

Post by Vigo
in

Post by Helix
flight to confirm it is not contaminated and I when I am sure it is ok, I
use it for the next takeoff and keep the other tank full for the next leg.
This way, I minimize further the chance of getting caught by surprise,
either on takeoff or landing, with contaminated fuel.
Losing an engine on takeoff, at night, or on landing is VERY

DISCONCERTING.

Post by Helix
Today's navigation equipment makes it possible to navigate more precisely.
However this stuff can and does fail. If you are low on fuel when it

happens

Post by Helix
(the usual situation), then your chance for running out of gas goes way

up.

Post by Helix
This is even more true at night, in haze, or limited visibility conditions
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII (resume)
888-595-9131
http://IFRGROUNDSCHOOL.cjb.net
http://10day.cjb.net
http://go.to/hints
http://ferrypilot.cjb.net

[Bob Moore]

Post by Helix
You can burn AVGAS in a JET ENGINE for a limited
number of hours without hurting it. If you go over the allotted
number of hours you have to take it apart.

In the old P-2V Neptune, we burned AVGAS in the jet engines
all of the time that they were used.

Bob Moore
VP-21

[John Gilmer]

Post by Vigo
I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a pilot
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

It's basically true.

Carb. type engins (or low pressure fuel injection) enginers use a sparking
plug to ignite the fuel. They are quite sensitive to problems like
pre-ignition or faster burning of the fuel/air mixture than the engin was
designed for. These engins depend upon the fuel having a certain octane
rating, vapor pressure, etc.

But jets (and diesels) inject the fuel AFTER the air has been compressed.
Pre-ignition can't occur as there is no fuel to ignite. The injection
process somewhat spreads out the ignition.

Some diesels used by the US military were called "multi-fuel" engins which
meant that they could burn gas as well as diesel fuel.

The reall difference between a multi-fuel diesel and an "regular" diesel was
that the fuel pumps and fuel injectors were designed to continue to work
even when the fuel didn't have any lubricating properties. So if you ran
gas through a diesel engins you expect increased wear and tear on the
pump(s) and the injectors. They also might be a SLIGHT increase of wear on
the cylinders as the gas would not be a good a lubricant as the regular
diesel fuel.

In a "jet" engine, the only hard gas would do would be in the fuel pumps and
the fuel injectors in the combustion chambers. But the peak pressures in a
jet are much lower than those in an piston engin. The pumps and injectors
doen't have to have a fuel will lubricating properties. Also, in a jet,
the fuel doesn't provide any lubrication once it has been injection into the
compustion chamber.

In the "old days" civilian jets used a fuel with a relatively low vapor
pressure and the military liked a higher vapor pressure product. It was
more of a trade off between ground handling safety and performance and ease
of starting at high altitudes.

Post by Vigo

Post by Helix
For more hints on Precise Flying and Safety...Click Here
A simple test of AVGAS for Jet Fuel Contamination
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII(resume)
Fueling Safety
Certain piston aircraft are particularly susceptible to mis-fueling
incidents and you should be especially vigilant if you are flying one of
these birds.
Among them are the TURBO charged versions of many airplanes. In the desire
to be the hottest thing going, manufacturers often labeled their aircraft
"TURBO" or some such designation. And inadequately trained linemen

thinking

Post by Helix
that these were kerosene burning jet airplanes of some sort often put JET
FUEL where AVGAS should have gone.
This created a lethal comgination for many unsuspecting pilots. The plane
would start and apparently run ok, even enough for takeoff, but would

start

Post by Helix
having engine detonation problems about the time the point of no return

was

Post by Helix
reached on takeoff, causing a engine failure shortly after takeoff at low
altitude, resulting in a fatal crash."
This scenario has been repeated many times, usually with some pilot and
passengers getting killed.
Aero Commander aircraft seem to be particularly susceptible to this sort

of

Post by Helix
mis-fueling, as do Piper Turbo Arrow aircraft and other airplanes with

TURBO

Post by Helix
painted on them
IF You Suspect Fuel Contamination
Do NOT FLY!!!
Check it out first.
A simple way to test for jet fuel contamination of AVGAS is to take a fuel
sample, put a drop of fuel on a piece of white paper.
If there is a 5% or more concentration of jet fuel in the avgas, it will
leave a visible oily residue, turning the paper translucent. If it is

avgas

Post by Helix
only, the avgas will evaporate cleanly and leave no trace.
(I developed this test and gave it to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation. It

was

Post by Helix
later validated by NASA. You can get a copy of the report from AOPA ASF,
Frederick Airport, Frederick, MD)
Another way to avoid fueling accidents is to
BE PRESENT EVERY SINGLE TIME WHEN YOUR PLANE IS RE-FUELED.
NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THIS PROCEEDING.
Always VISUALLY Check the fuel truck to be sure you are getting the
appropriate fuel Yourself. LOOK AT THE FUEL TRUCK.
Always VISUALLY CHECK THE FUEL LEVEL YOURSELF AFTER FUELING.
(lOOK INSIDE THE TANK)
ALWAYS put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Check that it is secure so it
won't come loose in flight.
NEVER RELY ON A LINEMAN FOR THESE PARTICULAR INSPECTIONS.
The Most Common Cause of Inflight Engine Failure
Running out of fuel is the most common cause of in flight engine failure.
If you follow the safety procedures above, you can go a long way to
preventing an engine failure.
EVERY Flight
(1) Watch the re-fueling. BE PRESENT while this is going on.
(2) Visually make sure they are puttinG the right sort of fuel in the
aircraft. (the truck is marked AVGAS or JET FUEL.... Look at it
(3) Look in the tank after the fueling and KNOW what the fuel level is.
(4) ALWAYS Put the fuel cap back on YOURSELF. Make sure it is aligned
properly and closes properly.
If it comes loose your fuel will siphon out without your being aware of

what

Post by Helix
is happening.
(5) Keep a LARGE RESERVE of fuel. The lower your experience level the more
important this is.
It gives you the luxury of time to sort out a problem if you are lost,
dis-oriented, or otherwise have a time consuming problem in flight. If you
are low on fuel, your anxiety level will increase exponentially, making it
difficult to think under stress and increase your chance of an accident.
After my first experience long ago in nearly running out of gas, I have

made

Post by Helix
it a practice, to KEEP ONE FULL TANK in reserve. I use a little bit of

it

Post by Vigo
in

Post by Helix
flight to confirm it is not contaminated and I when I am sure it is ok, I
use it for the next takeoff and keep the other tank full for the next leg.
This way, I minimize further the chance of getting caught by surprise,
either on takeoff or landing, with contaminated fuel.
Losing an engine on takeoff, at night, or on landing is VERY

DISCONCERTING.

Post by Helix
Today's navigation equipment makes it possible to navigate more precisely.
However this stuff can and does fail. If you are low on fuel when it

happens

Post by Helix
(the usual situation), then your chance for running out of gas goes way

up.

Post by Helix
This is even more true at night, in haze, or limited visibility conditions
Fred H. Quarles ATP-CFII (resume)
888-595-9131
http://IFRGROUNDSCHOOL.cjb.net
http://10day.cjb.net
http://go.to/hints
http://ferrypilot.cjb.net

[Vigo]

Post by John Gilmer

Post by Vigo
I have next to no experience in the Jet world, but I was under the
impression that in a bind you can burn avgas in a jet engine. I had a

pilot

Post by Vigo
once tell me that if horse piss could burn you could put it in a jet. Is
this true?

It's basically true.
Carb. type engins (or low pressure fuel injection) enginers use a sparking
plug to ignite the fuel. They are quite sensitive to problems like
pre-ignition or faster burning of the fuel/air mixture than the engin was
designed for. These engins depend upon the fuel having a certain octane
rating, vapor pressure, etc.
But jets (and diesels) inject the fuel AFTER the air has been compressed.
Pre-ignition can't occur as there is no fuel to ignite. The injection
process somewhat spreads out the ignition.
Some diesels used by the US military were called "multi-fuel" engins which
meant that they could burn gas as well as diesel fuel.
The reall difference between a multi-fuel diesel and an "regular" diesel was
that the fuel pumps and fuel injectors were designed to continue to work
even when the fuel didn't have any lubricating properties. So if you ran
gas through a diesel engins you expect increased wear and tear on the
pump(s) and the injectors. They also might be a SLIGHT increase of wear on
the cylinders as the gas would not be a good a lubricant as the regular
diesel fuel.
In a "jet" engine, the only hard gas would do would be in the fuel pumps and
the fuel injectors in the combustion chambers. But the peak pressures in a
jet are much lower than those in an piston engin. The pumps and injectors
doen't have to have a fuel will lubricating properties. Also, in a jet,
the fuel doesn't provide any lubrication once it has been injection into the
compustion chamber.
In the "old days" civilian jets used a fuel with a relatively low vapor
pressure and the military liked a higher vapor pressure product. It was
more of a trade off between ground handling safety and performance and ease
of starting at high altitudes.

I must say I think thats the best response yet on this topic

[Robert M. Gary]

About 10 years ago Chevron got some Jet-A mixed up with the 100LL. No
one reported any problems flying on it, but everyone who could prove
they got some of that gas got a new engine.

-Robert

[Helix]

Well, for what it is worth, NASA spent a hell of a lot of money validating a
simple test to determine a 5% contamination level of jet fuel in AVGAS. that
was
given to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation because of
the hazzards due to mis-fueling incidents.

Post by Robert M. Gary
About 10 years ago Chevron got some Jet-A mixed up with the 100LL. No
one reported any problems flying on it, but everyone who could prove
they got some of that gas got a new engine.
-Robert